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What game imbalance does this enhancement correct?

Please go ahead and delete the Warrior role already.

It's part of the design for the violence system which has existed from the beginning and is, like everything else, being implemented piece by piece. It simply makes Flee more realistic by including Dexterity in the calculation of whether Flee succeeds or not, in addition to other attributes such as FleeSkill, character level, and so on.

FYI, there's eventually going to be a Skill called PreventFleeSkill which Players as well as NPCs will be able to learn. Something which Warriors will probably appreciate.

Far from deleting the Warrior role, much of the game world which exists today was implemented specifically to enable it. That'll continue expand over time, as the code base to support it matures.

Here's the bottom line, I think. You've gotten used to a particular approach to game play which you're treating now as some kind of baseline for what's normal and what isn't. What you're missing is that it's not normal, it's an anomalous situation created by the premature release of the Warrior role before it's been ready. It's going to change a *lot* from what it is now. I think those changes are interesting and are going to move the game away from the MUD-like feel it has today. That's *always* been a key goal and I'm personally really happy to be moving toward realizing it.

Well, my question with zone areas has always been the strength of the NPC characters. I heard there were 15 levels in the Sewage Treatment Plant, and Mark if you being level 100 and me having the best equipment available in the game can barely survive on level 5 of the plant there needs to be some rethinking of the strength of mobs if you are going to also prevent fleeing. I would agree to making certain mobs immune to attack if everything was balanced better. For example, you suggest being level 30 before being able to attack the 6th cave lost children. They only give 30 experiance for an Oblit, and who at level 30 would be able to make any experiance from this? If combat is going to become more deadly and difficult and from previous posts it appears that thieves and healers gain quite a bit more experiance than warriors, perhaps you could make combat more rewarding with the added difficulty? That, or I wouldn't mind the difference being made up in extra skills, even non-combat related, that gave us more of a broad-spectrum of abilities over just the weapon-based skills that we get now.

-> Mark, your sword attacks began to be parried by the 5th level rats even with your sword skill of 100. That seems off to me, anything but gunshots will be parried by characters trying to gain experiance...even with 100+ dexterity and 116 hit rate, I can't use a Topaz Sword because every attack I attempt is parried. It doesn't seem right that a spider should have the parry skill to begin with, perhaps evasion, but parry...a topaz sword would hack the limbs right off. Just a thought, but it seems like every NPC has every skill at maximum rank which makes combat very hard. Just some thoughts on my part.

-Jordan West(Luciano)

I'm not clear where the idea that the 'Mark' character has a sword skill of 100 comes from. Is there anybody in the City who teaches SwordSkill to that level? Mark's is level 15, if I remember.

The fact that the 'Mark' character is level 100 is meaningless to combat. His stats are far lower than Luciano's.

Luciano didn't 'barely survive', in fact he couldn't be scratched, even by an army of opponents even while he slept even with his energy in the red. He could go several more levels deep by himself.

The strength of the NPCs at the lower levels of the sewage plant doesn't require rethinking because the Flee algorithm has changed. It requires teamwork among a group of players of a certain size with a certain mixture of skills.

The advice in LC 6 to be level 30 is to try to prevent characters from being needlessly killed (and it in fact originates at Selfea's request as I recall). I'm not sure how you read it to mean, 'Warriors! Please attack here! Lots of experience to be gained!' FYI, the Lost Children area is *not* one intended for Warriors.

NPCs by the way have very few Skills. Typically Parry and Flee and their weapon skill, if they have a weapon.

BTW I think there's a pattern becoming clear in these exchanges? I don't mean to put words into your mouths, but what seems to alarm you both is that TC is evolving toward a style of play which privileges teams over lone wolves. Your example of the sewage plant comes to mind. You can't go far there by yourself; you can in a group. This might force some changes in strategy but, that's good, IMO.

So I think we're back to what I mentioned in my previous post. I think you guys have gotten used to things being a certain way and are now being overly alarmed by their evolution toward the kind of game environment TC has always been intended to become. I'd suggest taking a more careful look at what the changes-in-progress actually mean for your characters (example: have any of your characters actually been prevented from fleeing so far? I really doubt it), and also taking a look at what the evolving game world means for the strategy of playing the Warrior role. Contrary to Lisa's opinion, it's my belief that the game world as it exists today is heavily weighted toward Warrior challenges. Far from being at a disadvantage I think the Warrior role is privileged compared to the others. Losing merchant attacks doesn't change that, it just forces a new strategy. The changed Flee algorithm actually doesn't change much of anything. I think you'll probably see that when you check it out.

Yes, I had "TRIED" the new flee properties before I bitched about them, and if you look at the game logs, I have bent over backwards constantly for the past few months to involve any Level 10 or higher Char's in my "strategies". I much prefer group play over "lone-wolf" tactics.

Nice noting of a pattern. Here's another pattern for you: You keep posting "To Do" priority lists, but the recent code changes keep revolving around trying to kill off characters playing the game with a different philosophy regarding violence from yours. Is the lack of TC players because Luciano and Kaga are offending new players with their playing strategy, or is it because the city map needs rounding out?

So far Kaga, with Level 19 Master Flee skill and 100 Dexterity, has been prevented from fleeing from a Stormtrooper, a Tootshop receptionist, and the other Receptionist. This was after a "Consider" skill was used on the receptionists that said he should easily beat them.

For those who may find themselves outlaws someday, this means a certain death when you encounter cops now. It took months and months of gameplay to acquire the items that caused the "imbalance".
If this had been done quickly then I would understand your concern.

Hey, hold on. Why would you think you're supposed to be able to flee from a Stormtrooper? This sounds like a bug fix, frankly.

And it seems to me that they're bending over backward to prevent characters getting killed. They could have simply put bug lites all over the place and not warned you. You'd be toast.

The comment here which I'd like to focus on right now is re lack of TC players. Two things to note:

1. There's no attempt being made to recruit players. In my view, at least, the game world isn't ready for a larger player base. The attempts to bring game balance into better proportion is part of getting ready for that, or to say it another way, this is what 'beta' is about. But basically the code and the game world need to be able to support character growth to about level 25, give or take, and there need to be far more roles.

2. Despite the complete lack of recruiting effort, total player time per week is currently the highest it's ever been, and is growing steadily. I'm no expert but to me that seems like there are at least some people who like the direction of TC's evolution and are having fun participating. I'm really happy about that.

It seems to me that you're taking this evolution personally, as though it were directed at you. It's not.

I'll leave you with a heads-up. If you dislike the direction in which things are moving, you're going to really hate the eventual results. The Tootshop Receptionists aren't there to be killed, they have a completely different function in this world. That really is going to be what happens with them.

Well but there might be imbalances in NPC strengths and skills which the guys are discovering. It takes experience to shake that stuff out.

I just have a lot of reservation endorsing the feedback, so far, because the way it sounds is "I can't do what I used to do and that's inherently wrong." And I don't agree with that.

Yes, That is exactly what I think. A fully armored Level 19 warrior with a Dexterity attribute of 100 SHOULD be able to flee from a Cop. When you lose a character that you spent way too much time developing instantly to a cop because you swatted a fly in the wrong neighborhood, your tune may change. As TC stands now, there are no jails, no penal colonies, no rehabilitation possibilities at all for anyone guilty of even a minor transgression, only death.

Of what possible use could the Flee skill be, unless it is used to extricate oneself from a combat that you find you are overmatched in? The proper use of the "Consider" skill would prevent this you might think, but in fact does not always warn you of the severe overmatch. The Receptionists have been CONSIDERABLY toughened up in the past few days and now seem impervious to Rifle shots, but Master 19 "consider" shows them as wimps compared to Kaga. I am speaking from direct, recent personal experience here.

I'm all for change, bring it on. How about adding more challenges, puzzles, traps, rooms, etc. I haven't seen anyone make any posts bitching about how it's too easy in TC to kill NPC's.

From my (apparently warped) perspective though, most of the recent "additions" to TC aren't "adding" to anyone's enjoyment of the game, only restricting behavior that no one seemed to be complaining about.

If you still consider TC as beta, and feel the need to considerably tweak the game dynamics at this stage, don't be surprised if two of your more rabid beta testers squawk loudly while giving you feedback. Others may see the recent changes as minor, but I see them as very significant impacts to the game play of high level warriors.

Based on the Jan 18, 2004 MOTD, I was under the impression that beta status was nearly over.

This is the beta stage of Triad City where imbalances need to be discussed openly. In my oppinion, yes, there needed to be restrictions to killing shopkeepers. My objective in the game right now is to test the game. This is my 24th character and I know how it is to spend 4 months of my personal time testing Triad City to find bugs in the code and other things that need to be fixed, only to be killed and lose everything. I feel like during beta while there are still open bugs that the game shouldn't be about us playing as much as us working with Mark to make sure that once the game leaves beta it is an enjoyable experiance for those playing it. I personally feel that when we meet a bug such as what we have found in the sewage treatment plant(not being able to easily get out) I know of atleast 4 seperate people who have characters stuck inside of that area. Those are now characters who are not testing your code and world that are becoming unhappy because we can't play. Yes, I could start another character, my 25th, but why? I personally feel that my job as a tester is to outsmart you, show you holes in the game, and work with you to fix them.

The way combat works, neither a stormtrooper or myself can injure one another. If I can't flee, and neither can he, it is just absurd to see us both standing there unable to attack while I slowly starve to death. I have been stuck in more than one situation where I flee from a mob because of low energy, only to be attacked again and again until I can no longer flee.

Yes, I accept the game is in beta, but I feel like you should be doing more to allow us to test the game. I havn't played since I got stuck in the sewage treatment plant. I have been devoted to helping you make this a good game, but I can't if you don't take suggestions regarding area developement(such as making a way back out of the pipes). I personally don't like the leveling system because unexpected things happen and then you are permanently screwed. I easily made my way back out of the storm drain on my first trip to the treatment plant. Why, when I need 14,000 experiance to level should I be afraid of going that far under that it would add up to hundreds of thousands of extra experiance needed later on? I probably could fight my way out of the plant, going down more levels, but then I'm still better off dead. It just seems like I devote so much time to building a character only to recieve little help when I need it. Sorry it was long, but I felt like I needed to say all of it.

-Jordan West.

A Stormtrooper should be able to defeat any opponent up to level 25. The reason you feel otherwise, I really believe, is that you were able to access a considerable quantity of significant eq which distorted your experience. The fact that your characters could take on Stormtroopers was a bug. The fact that they now can't is a bug fix.

The Consider skill has nothing at all to do with measuring the likelihood of Fleeing successfully. That's not its job.

The Receptionists have not been toughened in any way. Far as I remember there have been no changes to existing NPC attributes of any kind for as long as you've been playing TC.

There have been 3,981 new rooms placed online in the last five months. How about it, indeed. I don't think that has anything at all to do with whether it's easy or difficult to kill NPCs.

At least as far as my personal opinion is concerned, I'm gonna need to hear something more convincing than 'I clocked a lotta hours and in return I wanna be able to kill merchants.'

To conclude with a hint. Take a look at the clause 'fully armored' in your second sentence. Should somebody who's fully armored be able to flee from someone who's more lightly armored? Try removing some eq and see if it makes a difference. I'm not guaranteeing that it will, but I am trying to get you to think in a different direction.

It's not a bug that you're stuck in the sewage plant. You went in with too small a group and not enough skills. There are players who know how to get in and out down there and have done it successfully. Find them and talk to them.

If a Stormtrooper can't injure you, that's an example of how badly out of balance things have become. A Stormtrooper should be able to kill anybody under level 25.

I greatly value your very helpful approach to beta testing, you've been awesome at finding ways to manipulate the system which then have to be closed down, LOL. But I'm not convinced by the arguments you've made so far.

To close this I want to make a comment about your character Luciano, my character Mark, and their experience in the sewage plant. Mark went down there with Luciano as a team and Luciano abandoned him flatly when Luciano realized he was reaching 0 exp to level. Turned his back and ran. Mark is not as armor-plated as Luciano and was very nearly killed as a result. That's an area which is specifically designed to be impossible for lone characters to deal with, and Luciano knew that going in. Maybe that's an example of pretty good role play, since I can picture a mobster not caring about the fate of accomplices. But it's not an effective way to deal with the specific challenges characters face in that specific environment. The fact that as a result Luciano got himself stuck there and can't get out doesn't frankly hurt Mark's feelings. I think it'll be pretty tough to convince Mark to team up with Luciano in the future. And that could turn out to be a problem for Luciano as the game world grows, because as we write the zones which are intended as challenges for level 15 - 20 characters there will be more and more areas like the sewage plant which require larger teams with specific skill and attribute mixtures. Characters like Luciano are gonna find themselves missing out when no-one will work with them. This is intended as a very strong hint about how to approach areas like the sewage plant in the future.

I'd like to point out to everyone who is complaining that TC was *never* I repeat NEVER supposed to be a violence based MUD like your average MUD. If that is what you are looking for you are WAY in the wrong place.

I've been around since close to the beginning, and so has Lisa.

Perhaps instead of whining that you can't do what you THINK you should be able to do, or what you have always (so far) been able to do, you could spend a bit of time reading about the goals of SM, Mark and his cohorts and come to understand just what it is that they are trying to achieve here.

They don't WANT a game where all you have to do to advance is kill NPCs. They want a game where you have to think, solve problems, come up with solutions etc. That's always been the aim - hence "Games for smart grownups". There are so many games out there aimed at mindless violence to improve your characters. If that is what you really want in the game, go and find one of them. The more this game develops, the less violence is going to be a primary levelling option.

In fact, the only reason that violence and the warrior role was introduced so early was because the player base became so much larger than Mark et al expected at the time, and they simply couldn't keep up with the demands of a growing and levelling player base. They basically implemented the Warrior role early to give the players something to do, while they went and continued to slowly develop the world.

And I know some people commented that because it's not Mark's preferred way of doing it he changes it and it's not fair. Well, sorry guys but it IS his game and his vision and he's had a plan since the beginning. Deal with it, and move on. I'm sure you'll find other ways to make the xp and eq you've been getting.

S

I just want to say to Darryl and Jordan and other violence users that I really appreciate your participation and contribution, and I know the SM guys do too.

Mark and Gary have told us many times they want to build a "wide" game, in which different characters are able to grow in many different ways. That specifically includes violence, and I remember Gary saying the Warrior role as we know it today is very primitive compared to what it will become. I'm looking forward to that evolution, myself.

So I just want to encourage you all not to take the recent changes so hard. Speaking as a cultivator of Warrior characters, I can't see that they've changed my personal playing style at all, at least so far. And anyway I'm looking forward to finding out what the evolution of the Warrior role will bring.

It's really late, I hope that all came out well!

This is way out of date, but the reason he thinks Mark's swordskill is 100 is because you said it was in the 'first pass through the sewage treatment plant' post on, I think, the Lore board? You said that you had L 100 swordskill and an ivory short sword, I believe. Just for posterity's sake.

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